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Question: Who is the biggest victim in this play? Oedipus? Jocasta? Their children? The people of Thebes? Some other character?
Answer: A great answer will consist of the following: Several well-written paragraphs with at least ONE text reference. At least one response to another student that covers more than "duh" or "ditto."
When quoting lines of poetry, include the line number(s) ONLY in parentheses after the quote and before the period at the end of your sentence. If you quote more than one line of poetry, use the / sign to indicate the end of one line and the beginning of the next.
Oedipus is the biggest victim in the play. There are numerous examples of how he is affected by all the events that transpire. Not only is he a victim of irony but he is also of a victim of fate because he is abandoned by his family because he was supposed to kill his father, but when they got rid of him it basically causes the kings death.
ReplyDeleteWe see that he is a victim when he is left to die on the hill and is rescued. One would think that the king would still be alive if he just kept his son and never left him. He would have been raised by the king and would have known he was his father. He would not have killed the king if he knew his relation to him. Also in the very beginning of the play one sees he even considers himself a victim. He says “I know you are all sick, yet there is not one of you, sick though you are, that is as sick as myself.” He is saying that because all of his people are suffering, he is suffering more because they are all hurting and that pains him deeply.
In the middle of the play we see that he is angry and ashamed of himself because he was the murder all along. Although he is the victim, he punishes himself which just makes him more of a victim. He gouges his eyes out because he doesn’t want to see anymore of the pain that he caused. He also has to deal with the fact that his mother/wife kills herself which adds even more of an emotional stress to his problems.
I think you're right Connor and thats one of the most intelligent things I have ever read.
DeleteObviously Oedipus is a victim in the sense that a prophecy condemned his actions and his family. However Connor, I don't think Oedipus is the BIGGEST victim in the play. Jocasta is a victim of the circumstance, she loses more than any character in the play.
DeleteHere Jocasta is, she's happy, she's queen, and she has a little son. Then all of a sudden there is a prophecy that her son is going to kill her husband and lay with her. That's a pretty heavy and tragic prophecy to bestow on someones life. I buy in to the fact that her and Laius giving away their child to protect themselves was an evil act, but aside from that the rest of Jocasta's life is filled with consistent tragedies in which she is the recipient. For that reason I think Jocasta is a bigger victim than Oedipus.
Jocasta loses her husband while Oedipus commits murder. Then, she unknowingly marries and has kids not only with her own son but with her husbands murderer. Jocasta has had to experience many tragedies and near the end of the play when she begins to realize what is going on, she can be viewed as a victim in how she reacts to yet another tragic event in her life. She tells Oedipus, "What do you mean? I am terrified/ when I look at you." Her life has been full of fear and sorrow. It's evidently been so bad that Jocasta ends up cracking under the tragedy and killing herself.
Jocasta's life was torn apart by many things in the play, in my opinion she is the biggest victim.
You do make a very interesting point. I can see how Jocasta would be considered the biggest victim. Its hard to argue that someone is more of a victim than Oedipus, who is so guilt ridden that he had to gouge out his own eyes. I think Oedipus' level of guilt speaks to how much of a victim he actually is.
DeleteNick,
DeleteIs your "response" to Connor actually your initial response to the question?
I agree that Oedipus is a major victim of this play but, I do not think that if he would have known his father that would have stopped him from killing his father. I think this because his prophet says that he is to kill his father and he can not change his fate.
DeleteI would agree that Oedipus is a victim, but I don't believe that he could escape his prophecy so easily. If his parents had not abandoned his on the mountain, then he would of killed his dad in some other way, either out of ignorance or spite. A prophecy is a prophecy no matter what, and it would have been fulfilled in a different way if Oedipus had grown up in Thebes. Oedipus is a victim of fate and his own choices. He and his parents decided his fate, and it was those decisions that made Oedipus a victim in this play.
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ReplyDeleteJust a note to all of you bloggers . . . To make your initial post, post in the box that asks for your comment. When you wish to reply to someone else's post, click on reply underneath the post.
ReplyDeleteI think some of you posted your original comments as responses instead of comments.
Connor,
ReplyDeleteWhile I appreciate that you were the only person involved in the conversation initially, I can't give any credit for your response to yourself. :-)
The biggest victims in this play are Oedipus and Jocastas children. This is because they had no control over what will end up happening to them. They were thrown into a world, where they will never be accepted because of their parents. “I weep for you… I weep when I think of the bitterness there will be in your lives”. They thought they were like any of the other kids with a mom and a dad and never once thought that there dad was also there brother.
ReplyDeleteJocasta is not a victim but yet a criminal to her children. All the time, she knew what was going on and never once thought to stop it. Everything was in her hands. I don’t know how she thought that having her son as her husband would do her any good but, not only did she put herself in danger but, she gave all of her children a lifetime of unhappiness.
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DeleteI too, took the question literally. From a moral standpoint, Jocasta's children play the role of the biggest victims. Like you said, the children had no control over their own fate. They received the most backlash from the skewed family dynamic. It was the consequences of their mother/father/brother that fell on them. Also - interesting point about Jocasta! I agree, in my opinion, she is the one to blame. Rather than playing the victim, she is primarily at fault.
DeleteI couldn't agree more, the children truly have no part in the family issues but they will have to be dealing with them for the rest of there lives!
DeleteTiffani you definitely summed up Jocasta in my eyes, she tried to save herself from the danger of death when she got rid of her child, Oedipus, but as a result she ruined herself and her family. Well said.
The biggest victim in this play is the blind seer Teiresias. Teiresias is man that is cursed by the god Apollo with the ability of foresight and prophecy. Teiresias' skill is not a gift because he is forced to predict the future, whether he wants to or not. He is also granted an immeasurable amount of knowledge about the universe, knowledge that can be both great and terrible. The entire city of Thebes is reliant on Teiresias for determining and fixing their problems. Oedipus calls him his lord, saying he is "versed in everything," (Line 317). He is the closest thing to a god that the people have on earth. Teiresias is the link between the past, the present, and the future.
ReplyDeleteHowever, in order for Teiresias to answer the king's query and to appease the Thebans, Teiresias must do the unthinkable: accuse Oedipus of murder and incest. Oedipus is the citizens' beloved ruler. He defeated the dreaded Sphinx and brought back the city from the brink of destruction. When Oedipus questions Teiresias, he comments "How terrible is wisdom when / it brings no profit to the man that's wise," (Line 336-337). Teiresias knows the king's terrible secret, but withholding that secret would condemn the seer to death, and revealing that secret would bring destruction and despair upon the king, his family, and Thebes. There is no avenue in which Teiresias can uphold the king's dignity and keep his own head. He cannot win.
And Oedipus does nothing to ameliorate the situation. He demands that Teiresias share his knowledge. The seer tries to convince the king that it would be better for everyone if Teiresias just goes home and the two live out their destinies separated from each other. But the king persists, and when Teiresias finally reveals the secret, the king is outraged and believes that he and Creon are plotting to take over the city. Teiresias, the once-beloved prophet of Thebes, is now cut down to a good-for-nothing backstabber trying to overthrow Oedipus. And this is all because Apollo curses him with the gift of knowledge and foresight.
Teiresias is the biggest victim of the play because out of all the characters, he is the only one that does not get a choice in deciding his fate. Oedipus chooses to attack the caravan of soldiers and kill them in a fit of road rage. Jocasta chooses to marry and lay with a foreign man that she knows little about. The citizens of Thebes choose to put their trust in a distant traveler that just happens to save them in their time of need. Teiresias has his uncommon abilities thrust upon him by Apollo, and is forced to tell the king about his sins. Teiresias has no say in his destiny. That is why he is the biggest victim of the play.
Although I agree that Teiresias is a victim in that he has his abilities put upon him in the form of blindness, I wouldn't say he is the biggest victim in the play. This is simply because he has the option to not inform the people and Oedipus about his visions. He is forced to see the future by Apollo but he never actually has to relay that information to others since he could always keep it to himself.
DeleteI don't think that Teiresias is a victim. All he did was mess with people by telling them silly things and after a few came true he was viewed as a god like person.
DeleteI believe that Oedipus’ and Jocasta’s children are the biggest victims in this play. The children had no choice in what and who they are and they will never be thought of as normal children especially now that they know and others know their father is their brother. This horrible fate was thrust upon them. “O children where are you? ... to waste away in barrenness unmarried.” (1540-1562). Once Oedipus found out the truth about his messed up family, he knew it would be hard for his child in the future.
ReplyDeleteJocasta is a victim but not the biggest victim. “It was on of the children ... She was so hard-its mother?” (1230-1237). She knowingly gave Oedipus to the herdsman which then followed the prophesy and caused the messed up family to happen in the future. She is half of the reason her children are the way they are while Oedipus is the other half. Oedipus is a victim of not only his fate but his actions as well. His actions caused this messed up family dynamics and the horrible fate for his children. This makes Oedipus’ children more of a victim than himself or Jocasta.
Also, not only did the children find out how messed up their family really is and who they are, but they also lost both their mother and their father/brother as well. They are left essentially family-less.
So, I just saw that we wrote about nearly the exact same thing. My bad Jordan!
DeleteBut I guess it's safe to say that I agree completely with your point of view. I can understand how Jocasta and Oedipus and the other characters can be seen as victims, but I still believe the children are the biggest victims.
I Think that the children in Oedipus are the true victims of the play. While oedipus lost a lot in the killing of this father and the children with what he found out to be his mother he made decisions that landed him in that place. The same with Jocasta, Jocasta was at the wrong place and the wrong time when her husband was murdered by Oedipus but she also made choices that landed her in the arms of her own child Oedipus. The kids of Jocasta had no choice but to go through their fathers death number one, and two to see their mother marrie her own child in its self is scaring. And the children of that relationship have to live with the consequences of that relationship. Oedipus got to escape by being blind. The irony of when he is bind he see, but when he sees he is bind is huge. And Jocasta gets to try to block that from her head. While the children are left by the way side with no one to help them and the scaring stuff that happened during their childhood. The kids are the true victims of this play.
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DeleteI agree that the children were major victims in the play, because of their innocence. The difference is that Oedipus and Jocasta were victims to their own mistakes, while the children committed to crimes.
Delete*committed no crimes.
DeleteThe biggest victim in this play is Oedipus. He is the victim of fate and the actions of others. In the play, he is devoid of freewill because he is forced by the beliefs of others to commit his crimes of killing his father and sleeping with his mother. Initially, his parents learned that their son would kill his father and sleep with his mother from an oracle. By binding his feet and ultimately trying to get rid of him, they sealed Oedipus’ fate to become the prey of this prophecy.
ReplyDeleteOedipus was tossed out from his original family and left to die until the rulers of Corinth adopted him as their own son. Through this path, he was foretold to kill his father and sleep with his mother. Fearing that he would act out these telling upon his “parents” in Corinth, he fled and unknowingly killed his real father in the process. It could be said that he could’ve had the free will not to kill Laius at the crossroads. However, Oedipus was alone and literally pushed to defend himself against the travelers at the crossroads because the prophecy he was told caused him to feel afraid that the truth might become true. Additionally, it was the fault of his real parents to initially attempt to get rid of him and, in the process, force Oedipus to not know his real parents were not the rulers of Corinth.
In the aftermath of these events, Oedipus became the king of Thebes and slept with Jocasta, his mother, fulfilling the prophecy. This was due to him attempting to isolate himself from Corinth and the reality of the prophecy. Yet, because no one ever revealed to him the full truth, he was forced to make the prophecy come true. He was bound by the actions of the others to execute his prophecy as they never permitted Oedipus to select his own life. In the end, even Oedipus himself admits that he was entirely confined by fate and will continue to be in his statement, “I would not have been saved from death if not for some strange, evil fate. Well, let my fate go where it will” (1517-1519). His life was never his, it was fate’s and never having free will makes him the biggest victim of all.
David, even though I made a point to stand up for the children being the most victimized of this play, I couldn't find a reason to dispute what you've stated. The main point of this play is that man cannot escape his own fate. No matter how good or evil a person is, only fate has the ultimate control of what happens to that person.
DeleteI never considered "Fate" as being the bad guy. David, you're right, Oedipus didn't conciously make the decisions to kill his own father and sleep with his mother. He was attempting to avoid fate, however; it caught up with him. Tyler is correct in saying that fate has ultimate control and therefore, Oedipus is the victim of this play. Especially since he wasn't told the whole truth.
DeleteDavid, Tyler, and Cassidy, I think you are overlooking the idea of hubris in your discussion. Perhaps there was a certain amount of fate at hand. David, you do a nice job of attacking the counterargument of freewill with regard to the crossroads, but I am not sure fate and freewill are mutually exclusive . . . especially in the presence of hubris. Just a little food for thought . . .
DeleteThe children of Jocasta and Oedipus are the biggest victims of the play because they are the characters that have the biggest claim to innocence. They didn't do anything to create the death-riddled family dynamics, they were simply born into it. On the other hand each of the other characters have something that mars their victim persona.
ReplyDeleteTeiresias, while weighted with the knowledge of the universe, was not faultless in this story. When speaking to Oedipus he blatantly says that he knows the knowledge that Oedipus seeks but refuses to tell him, instead he says, "Let me go home." (line 342). Yes, the prophet was trying to avoid conflict, but by doing this he set the entire play into action. Had he just simply told the people his knowledge, Oedipus wouldn't have reacted as drastically with hurt accusations towards Creon, "I have found you dangerous,-- and my foe." (line 604). The prophet set the ball rolling because he created the frustration and confusion that carried throughout the play. Maybe it wasn’t done intentionally, but because of that he is deemed less of a victim then the children that had no part to this scheme.
Oedipus ties right into the prophet’s faults; his overreaction to the seer is just the beginning of his less-than innocent downfall. Because of that, he becomes both hostile towards then agitated when talking with Jocasta about his fate. This escalates into the combined downfall of Jocasta and Oedipus. Jocasta can't be claimed as an innocent party here because she is the one who originally tried to do away with Oedipus because of her fear of death and fate. The Herdsman even states "you're wife would tell you best how all this was." (line 1235). During this entire conversation, Jocasta was aware (or at least realizing) that she married her son. The fact that she hobbled her son in the first place speaks in itself of her lack of innocence in the situation. Yes, she was a victim of fate in the fact that she might not have had the choice of becoming Oedipus' wife; however, she made herself the guilty party when she decided to do away with her son out of fear. Therefore she isn't the biggest victim in comparison to her helpless children. Who never had a choice.
Oedipus may have been the biggest victim of circumstance due to his prophetic life but in the end he is not innocent of fault from the beginning, shown when he states, "I killed them all." (line 887) in reference to his father's death; he killed his father simply because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. If he had had just a tiny bit more restraint he could have altered his fate and that of both Jocasta's and most definitely his children. So while Oedipus is a victim of fate, his choices give him more fault than his children, who have had no choice in the life they were given.
Due to these characters flaws, I feel like the real debate comes down to Jocasta's children and the people of Thebes. While the people of these were most definitely innocent in relation to the disasters that they had to deal with, they don't have to deal with the direct tie to such a messed up family. In contrast, the children of the ill-fated couple have to deal with the repercussions of their families’ deeds for the rest of their lives. The citizens can simply move on once the danger is behind them, but the children will be growing up in a world where their mother/grandmother committed suicide and their father brought horror into Thebes then was banished after gouging his eyes out. Those children are going to have a rough life because of the past that they had no say in, and therefore they are the biggest victims of the play.
These biggest victims in this play are the children. The kids have their mom die and their dad banished. The kids also learn their parents are mother and son. The kids did nothing wrong in the play, but they still are put into negative situations and brought down by what their parents did. The children had no control of the negative situations they were put into, unlike Oedipus.
ReplyDeleteOedipus is not the biggest victim because everything that happened was because of decisions he made. The prophecy did predict what Oedipus would do, but Oedipus’s choices led him to kill his parents and blind himself. Besides for the children, the biggest victims actually could be the Greek people for having to go see this play, and now the victims would be the English students who have to read this play and write about it in this blog.
Jeff, you undermine the ethos of your responses when you move away from the topic to personal concerns.
DeleteI agree with most of the recent posts. Jocasta's children are victims in the play, but perhaps not the biggest. We are accustomed to the present day moral and social 'rules' (clearly no acceptance of incest) which allows us to identify the morbidity of the family dynamics in the play. The children will receive a great deal of backlash from the actions of their own parents/siblings, even though they were not directly involved. Jocasta served as the primary one to blame, seeing as she did not prevent any of the actions, nor acknowledge her wrongdoing.
ReplyDeleteMoreover, I feel that Oedipus outwardly presents himself as the biggest victim in the situation, but he too is at fault. "I know you are all sick, yet there is not one of you, sick though you are, that is as sick as myself." Said Oedipus, projecting himself as a victim by admitting to guilt. Even when considering his horrific actions, he can be viewed as a victim if you take into account his unwilling nature to both kill his father and sleep with his mother. I felt Oedipus was forced or even tricked into acting upon these missions. It was the actions of the other characters that caused his painful fate and guilt portrayed through the act of gouging his own eyes out.
I agree with you Sarah. The children are big victims in the play because they can't control how they were brought up by their parents. I also agree with you talking about Oedipus being the biggest victim but I don't think he was at fault. His parents saw his prophecy and he lived it, I think it was more forced upon him than his decisions.
DeleteSarah that was te greatest points I've ever seen way you talked about knowledge in the second paragraph was prime.the point about jocast'a knowing lead to the forking of odipuses eyes was splended. I loved this because said bout the same idea in all. To enfasise this more on my agreement with you I would talk about how the finding of this out lead to even more events and the knowledge created tragedy!
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ReplyDeleteI see the children as the biggest victims. When I say the children, I mean the actual children of Oedipus and Jocasta, not the children of Thebes. Jocasta and Oedipus' children are seen as the biggest victims because they were brought into their life style and had no choice in how they were raised. They grew up believing their brother was their father. They had no clue about this, therefore they could not change it. It was just thrown on them. “O children where are you? ... to waste away in barrenness unmarried.” (1540-1562). This quote helps solidify the fact that the children were forced into this family and their future is going to be very difficult because their brother/father had babies with their mom.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I can understand how people are seeing Jocasta and Oedipus are true victims, I have to stick to my opinion. I understand that Oedipus was a victim in his fate. He didn't know he was married to his mom and he didn't know he killed his dad. Yeah, he lost a lot from his dad's death, but his dad didn't commit any incest (I'm aware that doesn't make much sense, but I had to get my point across...)
Anyway, I'm standing firm on my position that the children are the biggest victims in Oedipus mainly due to the fact that Oedipus himself made his children's lives hell.
I completely agree with you and you make a really good point, the fact that they grew up believing that their brother is their father, which was not in their control. This victimizes them more so just because they didn't have any idea and it was a lifestyle that was chosen for them, it was not their choice.
DeleteI agree that the children are the main victims. Agreeing with Keely, they had no say in the way that they were raised up and in the family that they belonged to. They lived a lie of their brother being their father for a long time. Also the fact that they are young and hurt makes the reader feel pity for them, subconsciously making them the victims because the reader feels bad for them.
DeleteFor this question, I have to agree with the majority of the posts who are saying that they view Oedipus and Jocasta's children as the main victims of the play. When I'm asked that question I'm initially drawn to the two innocent daughters of the whole situation. Though they're not mentioned till the end of the play, everything that has lead up to Oedipus's dramatic ending seems to be passed on to his daughters. There were multiple victims through out the play, but Antigone and Ismene are getting the the short end of the stick, more or less.
ReplyDeleteOedipus easily qualifies as a victim in this play. But I feel that his children receive a double whammy of the victim card. Yes, a double whammy. Even though all of these consequences were unspoken in Oedipus's situation, I feel that there was more chance for avoiding it, where as it is completely forced upon his and Jocasta's children. "I weep when I think of the bitterness there will be in your lives, how you must live before the world" (1547-1549).The two daughters will be outcasts and shunned for the rest of their lives. They will be forced to deal with the unfortunate effects and results that are entailed from their difunctional family.
I find Jocasta to be no where near a large victim in this play. She was fully aware of the curse set on her son, Oedipus, and she had the potential in making a wiser decision. Because really, what woman is going to forget such a curse and then not go and do some type of old age background check on whoever she decides to choose for her next husband? She could have been a little more cautious with that decision.
Oh herro, I kinda said this in my own post, but Imma have to disagree with you on the whole "poor children" thingy. A big theme in the arguments towards the children being victims seems to be that they had no control over what ended up happening to them. It is important to remember however, that Oedipus had no more control over what would end up happening than they did, and furthermore, AT LEAST HE TRIED TO STOP IT! What did the kids do to even attempt to help Oedipus avoid his fate? Not a darn thing.
DeleteI completely agree with you on your stance towards Jocasta however. She is 100% useless.
Rowan, I giggled at your mention of an "old age background check" and I would warn you against anachronism when you are reading from different time periods. They didn't live then as we do now and the blind prophet was the closest thing they had to a background check. We can't impose our 21st century ideas on folks from BC times or we risk missing the intent of the writing and the basic meaning.
DeleteOedipus is by far the most victimized character. People may try to get all creative and say that another character was hurt more by all of the events, but the play is named after him for Gosh Sakes! (sorry, please excuse my language) Anyway, If one stabs out their own eyes, you can bet that they're not feeling all too well about the events that have just transpired. In fact, Oedipus got a double smack-down of victimization as he was both a victim of fate AND a victim of his own actions! With the best intentions in mind, and believing that he is acting through free will, Oedipus still becomes fate's puppet and is doomed to fulfill the prophecy no matter what. On the other hand, as he exercises "free will", he unwitting causes his fate to unfold! So now he is thoroughly confused . . . and also he has no eyes anymore . . . so that sucks.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of eyes (and a lack of them) Oedipus gets another double spank to the face as he is blind and then he literally blinds himself! That is way too much blindness for one person. "You will no longer see all those atrocious things I suffered, the dreadful things I did! No. You have seen those you never should have looked upon, and those I wished to know you did not see. So now and for all future time be dark!" (1570/1580) Oedipus says this as he stabs out his eyes due to the shame of not seeing the truth in life. He blindly tries to avoid his fate despite the fact that he was pursuing it all along. This should already be pain enough for any one character, BUT NO! What goes better with metaphorical blindness than literal blindness? This is not the only reason he stabbed his eyes out though. Lets not forget that his wife just hung herself and left him all alone with kids who he has failed. Even though she is also his mother, it is still just heart wrenching that amidst everything that has just blown up in his face, someone he cared for killed themselves. I mean . . . GAH! What a bummer!
As for people saying the children were the biggest victims, sure their lives may be ruined, but they still have freaking eyes don't they? And you know what they can do about their failure father? Get over it and move somewhere else. You know what Oedipus can do to change the things he unwittingly did? Not a darn thing.
I do see your point, and Oedipus is one of the most victimized characters in the play, but the people affected by his actions and his "fate" were more victimized. Especially his children. Yeah, gouging out his eyes suck, but because of this, his children/siblings are now without a family. It was because of Oedipus' actions Jocasta hung her self and ultimately left the children alone, rejected, and confused. Sure, the children still have 'freaking eyes', but they don't have comfort in their own lives in so many aspects. He victimized his children. It may have been unintentional but it still happened.
DeleteI completely agree with you Liam, because like you said, Oedipus is just flat out screwed, with no hope for the future, while the children can still make somethind of their lives. The children are not physically damaged or anything, they just have knowledge of some sick stuff that happened. Oedipus has the same knowledge, and physical disablitliy, and had problems with all of it his whole life, not just a little while, making him worse than them, and everyone else for that matter.
DeleteI believe that the children of Oedipus and Jocasta are the biggest victims in this play. This is not only because of the shame and disgrace that was put on them but also the fact that they had absolutely no control over the events that took place in their lives. All the occurring tribulations in the children's lives were because of their father. Not only is he at fault for marring his mother who then birthed the children, but also these events lead to the suicide of Jocasta. If that isn't bad enough, the children soon had the citizens of Thebes looking at them in disgust as the products of incest. Oedipus then abandons his children after gouging his eyes out.
ReplyDeleteOedipus created the children's lives into a horrible nightmare because he made mistake after mistake, all of which could have been easily avoided. "he'll be revealed a brother and a father to his children in his house, husband and son to her who gave him birth" (Line 457) The children have it worse than any other character because they had utterly no choice in becoming inbreed children. This makes them the biggest victims in the play.
I believe that the people of Thebes are the most victimized character group of the play. Along with the children, the people of Thebes are innocent. Though there are many victims in this play and very few victors, the other victims are somewhat responsible for their fates. Oedipus stuggled the most in the play, but for the most part he was dealing with the repercussions of his own actions. Jocasta as well suffered a brutal end, but only because of her personal disgust for her own actions.
ReplyDeleteThe people of Thebes however committed no crimes, and therefore, were undeserving of their fate. They felt the agony of losing their King, while also feeling the embarassment of having an incestuous ruler.
I agree that innocence is a huge factor of victimization. I do think the children suffer more though since they find out they are inbred and then I think they are also more weighed down by the shame brought on by Oedipus' actions since he was their father.
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ReplyDeleteI believe that Oedipus is the biggest victim in the play because of the fact that he is his own worst enemy; in the end taking his own sight. Although Oedipus is the King of Thebes, he has past family problems that make him who he is. His parents kicked him out of the family because of the vision they had seen of how Oedipus's life will plan out. In the end, Oedipus fulfills the prophecy of killing his father and sleeping with his mother. Oedipus didn't chose his life path, he didn't purposely kill his father, or sleep with his mother; it's the way his life came to be. Therefore he is the biggest victim of the play because of the fact he couldn't change the output of his life, it was all planned out for him in the beginning, his parents were well aware of this and they set him out to fail and take his own sight.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, he isn't just a victim, he also grows from taking his own sight. Within losing his eyes, Oedipus gained sight and grew as a person for the rest of his life.
Oedipus and Jocasta’s children are the biggest victims. Mostly because as far as we know, their children are innocent. They didn’t do anything to cause their family’s misfortune but the weight of their family’s shame was put on them. Now they must live with having their brother as a father and the disrespect that comes with incest. Everyone they come across will likely judge them unworthy of respect. And they will have to work extremely hard for dignity.
ReplyDeleteNow of course when the children find out that their father is also their brother they are literally scarred for life. But then their father scratched his eyes out so that he wouldn’t have to see them. His kids are so disgraceful he gouged his eyes out to ensure he would never see them again. I’m sure they are feeling the love. And of course Oedipus banished himself unknowingly, adding to his children’s embarrassment.
And of course their mom commit suicide- highly dishonorable in those days I would imagine- leaving her children practically orphaned. No, they were abandoned which is worse. We don’t know how old the daughters were, but being unmarried and not living with immediate family isn’t very easy for young women. Their kids will forever have to deal with their bad lineage and will likely be discouraged from having kids of their own. .
I think that the kids are the biggest victims in this play because of the fact that they did not choose to be born into this situation. They can't control who their parents are, each one of them are innocent and yet they are put into such a negative situation. They in turn have to see their father face himself, being his own worst enemy. They end up having a bad reputation because of their parents' doings. In the end they are looked at as children of incest because of their mother and her wrong doings. Therefore I agree with everyone who has said that the children are the biggest victims due to the fact that they can not control the family that they are born into.
ReplyDeleteIn my personal opinion, Oedipus is by far the biggest victim in the play. Far above all of the other characters. I feel this way because Oedipus is to blame for all that happens to the other characters, and he knows it. The prophet foretold the future that Oedipus would fulfill, putting the weight on his shoulders while leaving everyone else guilt free.
ReplyDeleteOedipus had to deal with the weight of not fulfilling his fate. He left the town where he was raised, the family that raised him, only to end up killing his true father and eventually his mother before he even knew they were actually his parents. "The worse for me! I may have just set myself
under a dreadful curse without my knowledge!" (page unknown used online text). This quote shows the Oedipus unknowingly caused the harm to come. Oedipus meant to do good, but instead only ended up doing bad. His intentions were pure, but the outcome was evil.
Not only did Oedipus deal with the weight of killing his family, but he also had to deal with never having his true family. Being abandoned by his family for fear of killing them only set in motion the events that would ultimately lead to their downfall. Oedipus in my opinion sees that had he stayed put and believed to kill his adoptive parents nothing would have ever happened. That his own decision to leave in order to save those he loved caused him to kill those that should actually mean the most to him.
Jocasta can made to be the biggest victim in the play yes, but when one looks at the fact that she abandoned her own newborn child to save her life, what she was doing was shellfish. Was putting herself before another. Now looking at Oedipus through that same opinion, Oedipus was only trying to do good by the people in his life. He left because he thought the prophet foretold him killing his adoptive parents, and he wanted to spare their life. Searching for the truth even after Jocasta begged him not too, Oedipus was only trying to right the wrongs he did and find out the truth, while Jocasta knew the truth and refused to reveal it to her own son.
Oedipus was only trying to do good by the other characters, and was unfortunately did wrong by it, but his intentions were good. The other characters didn't have as good intentions, if good at all, making them at fault for their own actions. Oedipus was simply just the one to blame because he made the mistake of trying to do good by everyone in order to try and prevent doing bad.
Jocasta was shellfish? Interesting point...
DeleteI agree though that Oedipus's fate was far worse, mainly due to the fact that he never really knew the tragedy that befell him until the very end.
The biggest victim in the play is Oedipus. His fate defines him and no matter how hard he tries to avoid it, fate wins. Oedipus goes to Thebes trying to escape what he knows to be his fate. Oedipus also wasn't told the whole truth to the prophecy; he did the best he could to avoid his fate. Once he knew the whole prophecy and that it had come true he had such guilt he gouged his eyes out. Oedipus didn't intend on such events playing out.
ReplyDeleteOedipus was never told he would lay with his mother or else he would never marry. But Jocasta knew the prophecy, that's why she abandoned Oedipus. Why doesn't she consider this when she marries Oedipus? The secrets being kept from Oedipus were what really destroyed him and allowed the prophecy to come true. Oedipus never intended on such things playing out, but his fate was set in stone and would play out. Oedipus had no control of his fate and what were to happen. Oedipus is the biggest victim in the play, because he has no control of what happens, yet he is blamed for it and feels the guilt for what he has done.
Cassidy, "doing the best he can to avoid fate" has another side. he is intentionally trying to out-think the gods, a situation known as hubris. There's an element of pride present in his quest to avoid his fate. He goes out of his way to defy, change, avoid what the gods have ordained for him. Does he remain blameless in light of the fact that he is bold enough to try to change things, or, does that add to his plight?
DeleteI believe that the people of Thebes are the biggest victims of the play. Along with the children, the people of Thebes are innocent. Though there are many victims in this play, and very few victors, the other victims were somewhat responsible for their fates. Oedipus struggled the most in the play, but for the most part, he was dealing with the repercussions of his own actions. Jocasta as well suffered a brutal ending, but only because of her disgust felt towards her own actions.
ReplyDeleteThe people of Thebes however committed no crimes and therefore were undeserving of their fate. They felt the agony of losing their king, while also feeling the embarrassment of having an incestuous ruler.
There is obviously only two real options when it comes to who is the biggest victim: Oedpus and the children. As I see it, the children have been put in a seriously awful situation, and they truly are victims. But, Oedipus's victimization was a little worse than theirs, and actually for quite a few reasons.
ReplyDeleteOedipus was, well, screwed, right from the beginning of his life, being physically cripled in the ankles, and given up for abandonment. Even from that early stage in his existence, his fate was set, and there was no escaping it (but of course, it is fate). No life choice or event of any sort whatsoever could have changed it, so he was left without any choice in how his life would turn out. This means even as a King, he had no freedom in his decisions to affect the outcome of the future, and no way to know if the prophecy would come true or not. He had to live in constant fear of the prophecy manifesting itself. I mean seriously? He feared contact with his own parents. To say that the children have it bad because they lost their parents doesn't take into acount the worse situation for Oedipus. Isn't it worse to have known (okay, thought) you could never see your parents, even though they were alive, for fear of killing one and having an incestual relationship with the other, than to just know they were dead/blinded? I think so. Actually, I know so.
Besides, the children were not left in as bad a predicament as everyone is saying. Sure, Oedipus himself said "Then who will marry you? No one, my children; clearly you are doomed," (1560/61), but this isn't necessarily the case (yes I'm arguing with the main character). As of that moment in the time at the end of the play, there are only a few people who actually knew what all took place and what it should've meant for the children. Assuming they could just shut their traps to the public, then some people of Thebes who are unknowing will still marry the children someday. Plus, all of the comments about how the children are left parentless isn't all that truthful either. Creon is their Uncle, and as a high member of the monarchy, he isn't going to just abandon them to the streets, unless he's really some sadistic loon on the inside, but we've seen throughout the rest of the story he's not. The children will be fine eventually; their only problem will be a few mental issues from their messed up family life as children.
Oedipus on the other hand was given up as a child, physically mamed, told a lie about who his parents were, set up for failure all along, and given a reason to fear his own family for his whole life, then he fulfilled his twisted destiny, only to become a masacistic eye-gouger-outer, who was parentless, wifeless, visionless, despised, worthless, and the master of nothing and no one. The children still have hope, whereas Oedipus was given the bad end of the stick from day one, never to see a promising future, and in the beliefs of the ancient Greeks, damned by Zeus and whatnot.
Oedipus was victimized like no other in this play.
Kooper, I challenge you to take another look at Jocasta. She is a much-maligned character on this blog and I wonder why . . . how is her suffering less than other characters'?
DeleteI believe that Oedipus was the victim. He was a victim to his own fate. Considering fate is something that one can not control he was unwillingly put into an awful situation and future. Oedipus thought of these fate like events as coincidence and had no clue that he was put into these situations by the prophet. "I dear Jocasta, as a hear this from you, there comes upon me a wandering of the soul - I could run mad (1578)." The irony of this quote is that fate had already made him it's victim and made him run mad by killing his own father. This quote shows how innocent Oedipus may seem because he had no recollection of killing his father, and this innocence makes Oedipus look like a bigger victim to fate. Making fate control a person tortures them and is an awful way to live.
ReplyDeleteThe victim in a book is often the character that the reader had pity for. Readers often pity oedipus's children because of the family that they have to live in, however readers also subconsciously pity Oedipus. When Oedipus kills his own father the reader first feels bad for the father but then has pity for Oedipus when he can not recall what he did. "O God, I think I have called cursed in myself in ignorance (1578)." Another reason that readers have pity for him is because he was crippled as a child and abandoned, another event that he was unable to control. The fact that Oedipus does not remember killing his father proves the point that fate can take over a person and make them it's victim.
Oedipus's fate also includes him marrying his mother, and this is why his mother abandoned him in the first place because she knew of the prophecy. However that fact that Jocasta allows Oedipus to lay down with her (incest) even though she knows the prophecy that he will marry her gives the story a twisted reaction. Fate continues to make Oedipus the victim, by making him a victim to his own mothers doing.
The main reason that Oedipus is the victim is because his fate controls h and he has no control over it, and does not even find out about the prophecy until a later age.
(I know this is an hour late, sorry)
LJ, what are you doing up at this hour??????
DeleteI agree with you Lissa! I really like the point you made defining what can be considered a victim, it adds a lot of clarity to the argument! I think you could have added how he was a victim right from birth as well when he was cast out by his real family.
DeleteHi Bloggers!
ReplyDeleteThis concludes our first attempt at a class blog response. Thanks very much to those of you who participated. I look forward to 100% participation next week.
One idea I want you all to consider as we consider teaching presentations, discussion, and writing about Oedipus is the idea of hubris and what it adds or detracts from the overall tragic elements of the play.
I'm so sorry this is late Mrs. T, I had Stage door hell week begin yesterday.
ReplyDeleteI believe that both Jocasta and Oedipus were victims, although Oedipus suffered more as the tragic hero. While Jocasta was a victim vicariously, suffering because of her heritage and her son, Oedipus was a victim of a prophecy, which was unchangeable and uncompromising. The two ways that these characters suffered were incredibly different.
Oedipus's suffering was not something he could have avoided or changed in any single way. It was just his fate that he had to deal with. The consequences far surpassed his beliefs, yet he had some warning and premonition of them to come. His excessive pride also comes into his tragedy, as it makes him "blind" both figuratively at first, and literally later, to the fate that he must deal with. This is what makes Oedipus's tragedy powerful and have a great deal of meaning.
Jocasta on the other hand, is a victim of her sons fate, a vicarious happening. She knew of the prophecy concerning her son, and yet she was unable to recognize it coming true when Oedipus returned to Thebes. She becomes a victim both when she learns of what has truly occurred in her life, and when she takes her own life after knowing these facts. Jocasta's victimization is a more emotional and high-charged tragedy, as it was not her fault, and not her burden to begin with, she was dragged into it by fate.
I'm so sorry again that this is late.
Sam I think this is a good analysis of the victim of Oedipus the King<--(underline), however don't you think that Jocasta and Laius brought on their own demise by their actions after hearing the prophecy for the first time.
DeleteI am also sorry for the lateness.
ReplyDeleteThe true victims of this story was the people of Thebes. Due to Odedipus and his true parent's ignorance the prophecy that they had tried so hard to avoid was able to happen; when the prophecy eventually occurred it brought strife and turmoil to the city of Thebes and its citizens who were completely innocent. Furthermore Oedipus is in no way a victim because Teiresias told him about the powers he was playing with, "It is not fate that I should be your ruin, Apollo is enough; it is his care to work this out."
King Laius and Jocasta are also not victims because they were given the prophecy and from their actions to attempt to undermine it they were the ones to directly cause it. Had they not cast young Oedipus then he would have grown up and if the prophecy were to come about then the people of Thebes would know who the perpetrator was and they would have taken care of him instead of not knowing who had done the dark deed.
The people of Thebes are the only ones who do not have the information to figure out who killed the king; Jocasta and Oedipus know the prophecy and therefore are too ignorant to make the connection. In conclusion the people of Thebes are riding this roller coaster of ups and downs because of the initial ignorance of Jocasta and Laius, and the continued ignorance of Oedipus and Jocasta.
Again I am sorry
Sydney D.
ReplyDeleteI am very sorry this is late, my computer was not working. I promise that is not a stupid excuse. I agree with Nicholas. Oedipus is not a true victim of the play because he was warned of the power he had and the truth to the prophecy but Oedipus would not listen. However I believe that Jocasta is the true victim in the play. Jocasta is a dynamic character that did not have the ability to change her future for herself. Jocasta had everything taken away from her. Her child, her husband, and her life all because of her child and a prophecy. "Then thou mayest ease thy conscience on that score.
Listen and I'll convince thee that no man
Hath scot or lot in the prophetic art.
Here is the proof in brief. An oracle
Once came to Laius (I will not say
'Twas from the Delphic god himself, but from
His ministers) declaring he was doomed
To perish by the hand of his own son,
A child that should be born to him by me.
Now Laius--so at least report affirmed--
Was murdered on a day by highwaymen,
No natives, at a spot where three roads meet.
As for the child, it was but three days old,
When Laius, its ankles pierced and pinned
Together, gave it to be cast away
By others on the trackless mountain side.
So then Apollo brought it not to pass
The child should be his father's murderer,
Or the dread terror find accomplishment,
And Laius be slain by his own son.
Such was the prophet's horoscope. O king,
Regard it not. Whate'er the god deems fit
To search, himself unaided will reveal. (707-725)" This quote from the play demonstrates all the things she has lost in one quote.
I believe that the people of Thebes are also victims of the play because they have no knowledge or power to control what happens to their town. The people are just suffering through the hardships of someone else's wrong doings.
Oh she gets it.
DeleteI agree! The people of Thebes have no way to fight back or to even do anything but go along with their ruler. The gods are punishing them for other peoples' crimes, and therefore are the biggest victims.
DeleteFirst of all, I apologize for the tardiness of this post. I have no elaborate excuse and completely understood the distinction of midnight Saturday, I really just forgot...Here we go!
ReplyDeleteThroughout "Oedipus: The King" by Sophecles, many characters are victimized and done wrong. An argument could be made for Jocasta, or the children, but Oedipus proves to be the biggest victim. Though he tries to outrun the prophecy, he cannot escape it and inevitable faces his demise because of it.
Oedipus was abandoned at birth due to the prophecy that he would lay with his mother and kill his father. When he is accused of being adopted by an old drunkard, he takes it upon himself to find out the truth about his lineage. It is then, at Pheobus' household, that he hears the prophecy himself, for the first time.
"But Pheobus sent me home again unhonoured in what I came to learn, but he foretold other and desperate horrors to befall me, that I was fated to lie with my mother, and show daylight an accursed breed which men would not endure, and I was doomed to be murderer of the father that begot me." (lines 860- 866)
Being that Oedipus did not know that he was adopted, he fled from his adoptive parents to try to protect them and himself. By doing so, he sets the prophecy in motion and inevitably fulfills it.
Oedipus also makes himself a victim unknowingly. As he learns of the reason behind the famine of his kingdom, he declared that he will banish the man who killed the king.
" I forbid that man, whoever he be, my land, my land where I hold sovereignty and throne; and I forbid any to welcome him...I command all to drive him from their homes, since he is our pollution..."(lines 249-259)
As Oedipus learns that he is that man, he is forced by his own will and promise to banish himself and blind himself. To inflict pain on oneself can be considered most tragic and proves that he is the biggest victim in this play.
Hi Mrs. T, this is Kaity
ReplyDeleteHi Mrs. T. This is Zach Period 7
ReplyDeleteHi Mrs.T this is Brickley <3
ReplyDeleteHi Mrs T wat up in hood with the wood sourounding you with treees cause you're my favorite in thw whole wide world and Roses are red Violets are blue when I come to your class my learning reallyt improves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nick that the biggest victims in the play are the people of Thebes. They have suffered from everything that their kings have done. The God's attempts to punish the kings also falls onto the citizens and they have truly done nothing wrong. For example, when Oedipus's father attempts to thwart fate and abandons Oedipus on a hillside, the city is punished by a sphinx. When Oedipus comes to the city and "saves" them, he too is avoiding fate and the city is punished with a plague.
ReplyDeleteThe priest states that Oedipus has "seen our city reeling like a wreck already" (line 6) and implores Oedipus to find the cause of the city's suffering. Oedipus dutifully searches for the cause, which ultimately causes his own demise. Once again, the city is thrown into trouble because it will now be disgraced by it's rulers sins against the Gods.
"I do not care, if it has saved this city" states Oedipus. His pride blinds him and he will not listen to Terisias, the blind man who tries to tell Oedipus of his true heritage. As Oedipus ignore Terisias, the city continues to suffer even though this is the exact opposite of what Oedipus is trying to accomplish.
In my opinion the biggest victims in the play are Oedipus' children and the people of Thebes. I think his children are victims because throughout the story they have nothing to do with their fathers prophecy and can do nothing to stop it they are the true victims. They are judged for the rest of their lives because they are inbred children. I also believe that the people of Thebes are victims too because they end up getting punished for Oedipus’ wrong doings. While Oedipus searches for the cause of the cities demise he ends up fulfilling his own prophecy.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with quite a few other students when they explain how Oedipus is the biggest victim too. He was a major victim because even though he was trying to avoid his prophecy it was bound to come true no matter what, making him a victim.
ReplyDelete